LIL' HOGGERS

[PixMan]

Sounds like you want a 1" (or 25mm?) indexable insert end mill. In the Walter line, that would be an F4042 style. With Walter and most others, there will be 3 to 4 insert sizes, all being ADMT. APMT, XOMT (Seco) or similar. With almost all, the first two numerical characters of the insert nomenclature will give an indication of size (and inherent depth per pass capability. The smaller the insert, the more of them can fit around the periphery and the smoother it cuts. The larger the insert, the longer the cutting edge and deeper it can go in one pass.

Some basic guidelines for a typical 1" cutter:
16-18mm insert, 2 pockets
11-12mm insert, 2 or 3 pockets
9-10mm insert, 3- or 4 pockets
7-8mm insert, 4 or 5 pockets

I like the happy medium of a 3 insert cutter. When you look at the various offerings in your area, try to find photos of the cutter with inserts installed so you can see the axial shear angle and radial top rake angle.

This is my 3/4" F4042R with it's three 10mm inserts. In one photo you can see the significant axial shear angle, which help reduce cutting force.

In this view you can see the top rake angle, which also aids in reducing force and the hammering effect you'd get with the type seen in the "Lil' Hoggers."


Other makers may have little to no axial shear angle, though usually plenty of top rake angle. I hope this helps.

[aRM]

(04-15-2016, 07:06 PM)Mayhem Wrote: Hi aRM - are you going to use this mill up to a 90° shoulder or only ever face milling?  The reason Ken asked is because a lot of face mills use inserts that will not enable you to mill up to a 90° shoulder.

If you take a look at the picture of the three mills in your original post, only the last one (triangular insert) would allow this.  

You can face mill with a shoulder mill but you cannot always shoulder mill with a face mill.

Hello there, Sire or better still MATE !!!
Man, that sure is understandable now - the way U explain it.
However, U put me to more thought now, 'cos I am trying to recall the times when we ever needed to "shoulder Mill".
But then again, would it not be preferable to have a more versatile Tool than one with limited capabilities
I reckon we should, if anything, go for the "shoulder Mill"
What would U suggest ??
TIA
aRM

[aRM]

(04-15-2016, 08:05 PM)PixMan Wrote: Sounds like you want a 1" (or 25mm?) indexable insert end mill. In the Walter line, that would be an F4042 style. With Walter and most others, there will be 3 to 4 insert sizes, all being ADMT. APMT, XOMT (Seco) or similar. With almost all, the first two numerical characters of the insert nomenclature will give an indication of size (and inherent depth per pass capability. The smaller the insert, the more of them can fit around the periphery and the smoother it cuts. The larger the insert, the longer the cutting edge and deeper it can go in one pass.

Some basic guidelines for a typical 1" cutter:
16-18mm insert, 2 pockets
11-12mm insert, 2 or 3 pockets
9-10mm insert, 3- or 4 pockets
7-8mm insert, 4 or 5 pockets

I like the happy medium of a 3 insert cutter. When you look at the various offerings in your area, try to find photos of the cutter with inserts installed so you can see the axial shear angle and radial top rake angle.

This is my 3/4" F4042R with it's three 10mm inserts. In one photo you can see the significant axial shear angle, which help reduce cutting force.

In this view you can see the top rake angle, which also aids in reducing force and the hammering effect you'd get with the type seen in the "Lil' Hoggers."


Other makers may have little to no axial shear angle, though usually plenty of top rake angle. I hope this helps.

Hi there KEN
At the outset let me say thanks for the detailed response. We definitely would not have got better.

Looking up the Walter Catalogue we found the "Xtra-tec" F4042R Z25.025.Z03.10 TYPE AD 10T3 Cylindrical Shank Holder in a 25mm Shank and cut circumference.
However, we are a little concerned whether installing this in our R8 25 mm Holder would be preferable as we are rather inclined to the 20mm shank which will fit directly in a 20mm Colett closer up the Spindle Bore for better rigidity. Regretfully, there is no 20mm Shank with a 25mm Cutting Face in the book.

Also, do kindly confirm whether U would be happy with the ADMT10T308R-F56 in Grade WSM 35 Inserts for us as we would like to pursue acquiring Prices first thing Monday morn from our local Suppliers. We reiterate, fortunately we get good preferential Discounts via an old Friend and getting the right Toolholder with the correct Inserts will definitely set us up - for Life !!!

Could anybody ask for more !!!
Speaking for ourselves, we are indeed privileged to have Your esteemed knowledgeable and practical inputs here.
LORD BLESS
aRM

[aRM]

KEN
There's some good looking deals on Ebay for ADMT 120412R-F56 in Grade WKP35
Know these may not be too good for Stainless, but what would say about the Insert profile ??
Would be nice to know
Thanks and kind regards
aRM

[PixMan]

aRM,

The ADMT120412R-F56 in grade WKP35 is a 12mm insert that won't fit in a cutter made for 10mm inserts, so don't jump on those. The older grade WKP35 isn't going to work as well in stainless steels as it's successor WKP35S, though neither is the primary grade for austenitic (non magnetic) stainless steels. The would work fine in the ferritic/martenisitic and precipitation hardening stainless steels such as our desinations 410, 416, 420, 440C, 15-5PH, 17-4PH and so on.

You are correct that there is no 25mm cutter with reduced shank. We have the same issue with "inch" bodies over here so I've been known to take the larger tool and turn down the shanks. It's something you have to be careful doing or you can ruin a perfectly good, very expensive tool. A before & after example:



I might suggest just starting with the standard 20mm tool and the ADMT10T308R-F56 in the grade WKP35S or WSM35S. BTW, unless you need the very long cylindrical shank of the "Z20" version, the right tool would be F4042R.W20.020.Z03.10, as that's the shorter Weldon shank version.

[aRM]

(04-17-2016, 07:28 AM)PixMan Wrote: aRM,

The ADMT120412R-F56 in grade WKP35 is a 12mm insert that won't fit in a cutter made for 10mm inserts, so don't jump on those. The older grade WKP35 isn't going to work as well in stainless steels as it's successor WKP35S, though neither is the primary grade for austenitic (non magnetic) stainless steels. The would work fine in the ferritic/martenisitic and precipitation hardening stainless steels such as our designations 410, 416, 420, 440C, 15-5PH, 17-4PH and so on.

You are correct that there is no 25mm cutter with reduced shank. We have the same issue with "inch" bodies over here so I've been known to take the larger tool and turn down the shanks. It's something you have to be careful doing or you can ruin a perfectly good, very expensive tool. A before & after example :

I might suggest just starting with the standard 20mm tool and the ADMT10T308R-F56 in the grade WKP35S or WSM35S. BTW, unless you need the very long cylindrical shank of the "Z20" version, the right tool would be F4042R.W20.020.Z03.10, as that's the shorter Weldon shank version.

KEN
"Tis fortunate that U pointed out our error on picking that wrong Length for the Toolholder. At Eight Inches that would not have been practical for our Machine !!! Thanks for that.

Ideally, we would really prefer doing exactly just what U have done with Your Toolholder. If it has a centred-indentation point at the rear tip, and with the Tool perfectly and accurately clocked in a 4 Jaw, we'd like to take that adventure, 'cos the idea of the 25 mm can't seem to be removed from our eagerness !!! That extra, wee 5 mm
will and does make a difference. And with the shank conversion, Man You've raised possibilities there that's exactly what the good doctor ordered. And I can promise U our machine will be happy as well.

To weigh the options, methinks we should get Prices for both Tools and take it from there. Yes, it will and has to be the Weldon-Shanked shorter version like U said. We will also follow through with the correct Grade Inserts. Will let U know what transpires.

Once again, Thanks a zillion for taking time out here. We cannot and will not be able to do equivalent justice to Your tremendous sacrifices here.
LORD BLESS
aRM

[PixMan]

aRM, if you do opt for the 25mm cutter and have a go at modifying the shank as I have done to six cutters (so far) be aware they're pretty hard. You would absolutely need to use good carbide tooling on the lathe. It's a tough application because you need a hard grade to get through the hardness of the tool shank, yet it has to be tough enough to endure the interrupted cut coming across the Weldon flats.

As for a center hole, it's not a traditional 60º one but you DO have a coolant hole that is centered quite exactly. Use that for support, but bring in your live center only after truing it up in the 4-jaw chuck using a dial test indicator on the ground shank to assure it's straight AND true the whole length of the ground shank.

Best of luck,

Ken

[aRM]

(04-17-2016, 10:30 AM)PixMan Wrote: aRM, if you do opt for the 25mm cutter and have a go at modifying the shank as I have done to six cutters (so far) be aware they're pretty hard. You would absolutely need to use good carbide tooling on the lathe. It's a tough application because you need a hard grade to get through the hardness of the tool shank, yet it has to be tough enough to endure the interrupted cut coming across the Weldon flats.

As for a center hole, it's not a traditional 60º one but you DO have a coolant hole that is centered quite exactly. Use that for support, but bring in your live center only after truing it up in the 4-jaw chuck using a dial test indicator on the ground shank to assure it's straight AND true the whole length of the ground shank.

Best of luck,

Ken

Hello KEN
Maybe we were a bit impetuous and a little naive in thinking that the Shank would not have been hardened but the Insert-holding section only !!!
Although we are pretty confident our lathe would be able to comfortably handle the interrupted Cuts - we just might need go back and research the Quality of the Inserts we have. However, they are definitely an Internationally recognised product. Not the run of the mill "Imports".

If push comes to shove, could we not just get "Ceramic" Inserts to properly complete the job ???
We do have another large truck Gudgeon Pin long waiting to be turned and adjusted as well. This project just might kill two birds !!!
aRM

[PixMan]

You'll be fine. The shanks should be about 52-55Rc hardness (520-580HBn) so most good carbide will handle it. No worries. You shouldn't have to go to ceramic, which may have have issues with interrupted cuts.

[aRM]

(04-18-2016, 08:31 AM)PixMan Wrote: You'll be fine. The shanks should be about 52-55Rc hardness (520-580HBn) so most good carbide will handle it. No worries. You shouldn't have to go to ceramic, which may have have issues with interrupted cuts.

Hello  KEN
This is heartening.  
Just to let U know, we've just Ordered and paid for the 25mm Shank Tool with the WKP35S Inserts from eB.  Got a fantastic deal - better than our Local.
Just need source for the WSM 35 S  Inserts now.  Maybe will get them from the local supplier's  -  their Price seems  OK.
Have added some pics of what the Tool and the Inserts went like !!!
Can't wait now to receive our goodies.
Thanks once again for all the kind asistances
aRM