Not very good welding

[EdK]

(01-31-2013, 04:01 PM)ieezitin Wrote: Not a problem. and i understand about the weather. And i am not going anywhere so when ever you are ready.

The Millematic, 180 will be fine, its not a cheap basic model, its a nice unit and i have used them it will serve you well, they do a great job on aluminum too with the spool gun.

Anthony

Anthony,

It's good to know that it does a decent job with aluminum. I don't have the spool gun kit yet for it. I was kind of holding off on getting it because I didn't know how well it welded aluminum. I'm not even going to think about welding aluminum until I can weld steel half decently.

Ed

[ieezitin]

(01-30-2013, 07:27 PM)TomG Wrote: Welding is a learned skill that is acquired with practice, LOTS of practice. And when you get to the point where you can produce good consistent welds, you need to keep welding to maintain that skill. It's not like riding a bicycle. Once you stop, the skill quickly goes away and the only way to get it back is more practice. I used to torch weld 4130 tubing on the job and I got to where I could produce wonderful looking welds, but to do that now would require quite a bit of practice to get it back, not as much as it took the first time, but quite a bit just the same. The same thing happened when I restored my Chevelle. There was a lot of sheet metal welding and it took quite a while before I could make a warp free weld on sheet metal that didn't require a ton of grinding.

In short Dave (and Ed), don't get frustrated. Get yourself a bunch of scrap steel and weld it all together. Don't practice on projects because that will only get you frustrated, practice on scrap and when you get comfortable THEN weld on a project. Your welding and your confidence will improve with practice, practice, practice.

Tom

I disagree.

Having someone telling you what to do and the reason why, is acquiring a skill, just going into the shed and welding scrap and producing trash is just plain torture.

Welding is not hard. practice just gives you refinement

[TomG]

(01-31-2013, 05:47 PM)ieezitin Wrote:

(01-30-2013, 07:27 PM)TomG Wrote: Welding is a learned skill that is acquired with practice, LOTS of practice. And when you get to the point where you can produce good consistent welds, you need to keep welding to maintain that skill. It's not like riding a bicycle. Once you stop, the skill quickly goes away and the only way to get it back is more practice. I used to torch weld 4130 tubing on the job and I got to where I could produce wonderful looking welds, but to do that now would require quite a bit of practice to get it back, not as much as it took the first time, but quite a bit just the same. The same thing happened when I restored my Chevelle. There was a lot of sheet metal welding and it took quite a while before I could make a warp free weld on sheet metal that didn't require a ton of grinding.

In short Dave (and Ed), don't get frustrated. Get yourself a bunch of scrap steel and weld it all together. Don't practice on projects because that will only get you frustrated, practice on scrap and when you get comfortable THEN weld on a project. Your welding and your confidence will improve with practice, practice, practice.

Tom

I disagree.

Having someone telling you what to do and the reason why, is acquiring a skill, just going into the shed and welding scrap and producing trash is just plain torture.

Welding is not hard. practice just gives you refinement

Anthony,

I guess I'm a little confused about what you are disagreeing with. The definition of a skill is the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well. I assumed you were going to provide the knowledge part with your offer to troubleshoot welds if provided pictures, but that is only part of the equation.

As a former vocational education instructor in the area of both machining and welding, I am a firm believer that a little bit of knowledge and a lot of hands on experience is the only way to learn a skill. A beginning welder can sit and watch or listen to someone tell them how to weld until they are blue in the face, but until they get actual hands on experience, they will learn, and more importantly retain very little. You said yourself that welding is "visual, hand eye coordination". In my experience, the only way to develop that hand eye coordination is by practicing, a lot.

Obviously welding can't be learned without a certain amount of knowledge. That would just develop and reinforce bad habits, but neither can welding be learned on theory alone, the two go hand in hand.

Tom

[Highpower]

(01-31-2013, 07:11 PM)TomG Wrote: ...A beginning welder can sit and watch or listen to someone tell them how to weld until they are blue in the face, but until they get actual hands on experience, they will learn, and more importantly retain very little.

Tom

Been there, done that, standing on BOTH sides of the fence.
Why is it that doctors PRACTICE medicine?

It's like learning to ride a bike as a kid. You don't really learn until you've fallen off the seat a few times.

[ieezitin]

(01-31-2013, 07:11 PM)TomG Wrote:

(01-31-2013, 05:47 PM)ieezitin Wrote:

(01-30-2013, 07:27 PM)TomG Wrote: Welding is a learned skill that is acquired with practice, LOTS of practice. And when you get to the point where you can produce good consistent welds, you need to keep welding to maintain that skill. It's not like riding a bicycle. Once you stop, the skill quickly goes away and the only way to get it back is more practice. I used to torch weld 4130 tubing on the job and I got to where I could produce wonderful looking welds, but to do that now would require quite a bit of practice to get it back, not as much as it took the first time, but quite a bit just the same. The same thing happened when I restored my Chevelle. There was a lot of sheet metal welding and it took quite a while before I could make a warp free weld on sheet metal that didn't require a ton of grinding.

In short Dave (and Ed), don't get frustrated. Get yourself a bunch of scrap steel and weld it all together. Don't practice on projects because that will only get you frustrated, practice on scrap and when you get comfortable THEN weld on a project. Your welding and your confidence will improve with practice, practice, practice.

Tom

I disagree.

Having someone telling you what to do and the reason why, is acquiring a skill, just going into the shed and welding scrap and producing trash is just plain torture.

Welding is not hard. practice just gives you refinement

Anthony,

I guess I'm a little confused about what you are disagreeing with. The definition of a skill is the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well. I assumed you were going to provide the knowledge part with your offer to troubleshoot welds if provided pictures, but that is only part of the equation.

As a former vocational education instructor in the area of both machining and welding, I am a firm believer that a little bit of knowledge and a lot of hands on experience is the only way to learn a skill. A beginning welder can sit and watch or listen to someone tell them how to weld until they are blue in the face, but until they get actual hands on experience, they will learn, and more importantly retain very little. You said yourself that welding is "visual, hand eye coordination". In my experience, the only way to develop that hand eye coordination is by practicing, a lot.

Obviously welding can't be learned without a certain amount of knowledge. That would just develop and reinforce bad habits, but neither can welding be learned on theory alone, the two go hand in hand.

Tom

Tom
On your post #22 which I am taking it you are pointing to my statement in #20. All you really mention and accentuate is Practice, and then you explain how you got good at your welding with 4130 steel and practice made you better.
What you said in the beginning was “welding is a learned skill that is acquired with practice” then you end off by emphasizing don’t get frustrated all you need to do is much of what you already stated.
Standing alone in his shop with an hour’s worth of practice under his belt and his welds having severe Under-cut with the plate warped like a pretzel serves him no good as to why or where did he go wrong.

In my opinion you’re not really helping anyone by just telling them to practice. Hopefully I have clarified your confusion.

I still stand by my belief, once someone has been introduced to some simple theory as to the reasons why and what, coupled with a liberal amount of hands on; the skill of welding can be sufficiently mastered to satisfy his hobby needs.

All I offered was a visual on what he does, tell him what happened, why and now try this etc then go practice and then come back. I don’t expect him to be able to take a 6-G weld test at the end of his endeavors, but he will be further up the road than he is already now.

Anthony.

[DaveH]

(02-01-2013, 08:55 AM)Highpower Wrote: Why is it that doctors PRACTICE medicine?

Because the word practice comes from a Latin word which meant "To exercise ones profession"

DaveH

[TomG]

(02-01-2013, 01:17 PM)ieezitin Wrote:

(01-31-2013, 07:11 PM)TomG Wrote:

(01-31-2013, 05:47 PM)ieezitin Wrote:

(01-30-2013, 07:27 PM)TomG Wrote: Welding is a learned skill that is acquired with practice, LOTS of practice. And when you get to the point where you can produce good consistent welds, you need to keep welding to maintain that skill. It's not like riding a bicycle. Once you stop, the skill quickly goes away and the only way to get it back is more practice. I used to torch weld 4130 tubing on the job and I got to where I could produce wonderful looking welds, but to do that now would require quite a bit of practice to get it back, not as much as it took the first time, but quite a bit just the same. The same thing happened when I restored my Chevelle. There was a lot of sheet metal welding and it took quite a while before I could make a warp free weld on sheet metal that didn't require a ton of grinding.

In short Dave (and Ed), don't get frustrated. Get yourself a bunch of scrap steel and weld it all together. Don't practice on projects because that will only get you frustrated, practice on scrap and when you get comfortable THEN weld on a project. Your welding and your confidence will improve with practice, practice, practice.

Tom

I disagree.

Having someone telling you what to do and the reason why, is acquiring a skill, just going into the shed and welding scrap and producing trash is just plain torture.

Welding is not hard. practice just gives you refinement

Anthony,

I guess I'm a little confused about what you are disagreeing with. The definition of a skill is the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well. I assumed you were going to provide the knowledge part with your offer to troubleshoot welds if provided pictures, but that is only part of the equation.

As a former vocational education instructor in the area of both machining and welding, I am a firm believer that a little bit of knowledge and a lot of hands on experience is the only way to learn a skill. A beginning welder can sit and watch or listen to someone tell them how to weld until they are blue in the face, but until they get actual hands on experience, they will learn, and more importantly retain very little. You said yourself that welding is "visual, hand eye coordination". In my experience, the only way to develop that hand eye coordination is by practicing, a lot.

Obviously welding can't be learned without a certain amount of knowledge. That would just develop and reinforce bad habits, but neither can welding be learned on theory alone, the two go hand in hand.

Tom

Tom
On your post #22 which I am taking it you are pointing to my statement in #20. All you really mention and accentuate is Practice, and then you explain how you got good at your welding with 4130 steel and practice made you better.
What you said in the beginning was “welding is a learned skill that is acquired with practice” then you end off by emphasizing don’t get frustrated all you need to do is much of what you already stated.
Standing alone in his shop with an hour’s worth of practice under his belt and his welds having severe Under-cut with the plate warped like a pretzel serves him no good as to why or where did he go wrong.

In my opinion you’re not really helping anyone by just telling them to practice. Hopefully I have clarified your confusion.

I still stand by my belief, once someone has been introduced to some simple theory as to the reasons why and what, coupled with a liberal amount of hands on; the skill of welding can be sufficiently mastered to satisfy his hobby needs.

All I offered was a visual on what he does, tell him what happened, why and now try this etc then go practice and then come back. I don’t expect him to be able to take a 6-G weld test at the end of his endeavors, but he will be further up the road than he is already now.

Anthony.

I'll tell you what Anthony, life is too short to get sucked into this kind of nonsense. You handle any welding questions as you see fit, since you are obviously the pro. I'll just continue on in my confusion.

Tom

[ETC57]

Hay Ed,
Do you have a community collage close by? if so I'm sure you could find a starving student who's taking a welding class ( 2nd or 3rd year) to come over and give you some pointers for a little donation.
I sure the teacher could recommend some one.
Just a thought, that's my plan anyway.

Jerry.

[arvidj]

(02-01-2013, 10:45 PM)ETC57 Wrote: Hay Ed,
Do you have a community collage close by? if so I'm sure you could find a starving student who's taking a welding class ( 2nd or 3rd year) to come over and give you some pointers for a little donation.
I sure the teacher could recommend some one.
Just a thought, that's my plan anyway.

Jerry.

Now the 'tutor' idea is a good one.

I live in the same metro area as Ed and have been very disappointed with the total lack of evening "trades related" education opportunities in the area so direct-instructor-to-me has not been possible. The one-level-of-indirection and pictures-on-websites might be the only alternative.

[EdK]

(02-01-2013, 10:45 PM)ETC57 Wrote: Hay Ed,
Do you have a community collage close by? if so I'm sure you could find a starving student who's taking a welding class ( 2nd or 3rd year) to come over and give you some pointers for a little donation.
I sure the teacher could recommend some one.
Just a thought, that's my plan anyway.

Jerry.

No college close by. My neighbor welds for his job at work as he is a machinist but when I asked him to show me he didn't seem to know how to do it any more than I did. I think he's used to the industrial welders and can't handle the smaller home shop type welders. I don't believe he has actually gone to welding school but just picked it up on the job.

Ed