Now that we have an expert on board ...
#1
Hopefully Rick will be able to give me some guidance.

On another forum a joint is pictured for a 90 degree corner where two pieces of angle iron come together. The joint in question is the 3rd picture from the top in this link..

A few responses down in this link a fellow defines the joint as a "block and chip" joint and suggests if it is done correctly it has minimal distortion but does not provide any suggestions as to the specifics of "paying attention".

Given that I have a need for several minimal distortion corner joints to build a rectangular frame I thought I would ask our new resident expert if

(a) he knew of a similar joint that could be used for heavy rectangular tubing ... 2 x 6 x 3/8 ... and

(b) what the recommended weld order and direction might be to minimize the distortion.

My original intent was to simply miter the joints at 45 degrees and weld it together but after some research I think the mitered corner joint is probably the most susceptible to distortion and my rectangle will turn out to be a pretzel.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Arvid
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#2
Great question Arvid. I'll be watching this thread. 6820

Ed
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#3
I would just like to mention we now have two experts, the other is of course Bob (aametalmaster)
Smiley-eatdrink004
DaveH
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#4
I weld angle like that everyday 3/8"-1/2" thick with a mig or stick. Tig is another story as i am not well versed on it even though i have 2 machines i am not an expert at it.
I would tack it and run the corner downhill then run the inside bottom flat. Just my thoughts...Bob
Bob Wright
Metal Master Fab
Salem Ohio
Birthplace of the Silver and Deming drill bit.
5 Lathes, SBL Shaper, Lewis Mill, 7 drill presses, 5 welders...
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#5
Bob,

When you say "I weld angle like that everyday" are you talking about the way it was done in the link Arvid posted or the way Arvid was going to do it with the 45 degree mitered corners?

Thanks,
Ed
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#6
(06-13-2012, 06:05 PM)DaveH Wrote: I would just like to mention we now have two experts, the other is of course Bob (aametalmaster)
Smiley-eatdrink004
DaveH

I did not mean to slight Bob when I asked the question. I apologize if that is the way it looked.

Arvid
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#7
(06-14-2012, 08:42 AM)EdAK Wrote: Bob,

When you say "I weld angle like that everyday" are you talking about the way it was done in the link Arvid posted or the way Arvid was going to do it with the 45 degree mitered corners?

Thanks,
Ed

I do it both ways depending on what it is and how the drawing wants. Sometimes i clamp the corner to the table after tacking it just depends what the project is and how perfect it needs to be...Bob
Bob Wright
Metal Master Fab
Salem Ohio
Birthplace of the Silver and Deming drill bit.
5 Lathes, SBL Shaper, Lewis Mill, 7 drill presses, 5 welders...
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#8
(06-14-2012, 09:28 AM)arvidj Wrote:
(06-13-2012, 06:05 PM)DaveH Wrote: I would just like to mention we now have two experts, the other is of course Bob (aametalmaster)
Smiley-eatdrink004
DaveH

I did not mean to slight Bob when I asked the question. I apologize if that is the way it looked.

Arvid
Nope no slight here we are all in it for fun Smiley-dancenana ...Bob
Bob Wright
Metal Master Fab
Salem Ohio
Birthplace of the Silver and Deming drill bit.
5 Lathes, SBL Shaper, Lewis Mill, 7 drill presses, 5 welders...
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#9
Hay we're all EX-Spurts!! RotflRotflSmiley-dancenanaSmiley-dancenana Just ask your mom or dad.RotflRotflRotflSmiley-eatdrink004Smiley-eatdrink004

Jerry.Popcorn
ETC57, proud to be a member of MetalworkingFun Forum since Feb 2012.
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#10
Hello All,
Thanks Arvid, it's nice to be thought of as an expert, I'll take that as a complimentBlush but as mentioned I'm sure there are a few other experts here as well, obviously Bob is one but there'd be others that know more than they think they do, often the case with welders.

Sorry it's taken me so long to find this but I've been distracted and had some password issues as well.

I've never heard the term "Block and Chip" before but the joint shown is a pretty common one, the idea is that to minimise distortion all the welds are at 90 degrees to each other rather than at 45 degrees as in a mitre, with the welds at 90 degree the shrinkage effectively shortens the "side length of a rectangular frame where shrinkage at 45 degrees pulls the angle closer together so the resulting frame isn't square.

A further complication being that as the centroid (axis of strength) of angle is not coincident (contained within) the steel but rather floating somewhere in the middle of the angle's "V" the shrinkage isn't directly supported at all by the compressive strength of the metal, this results in a twist being induced, all of this shrinkage can be reduced using certain techniques, but I think first of all to control shrinkage it is a good idea to understand how it works, this will let you decide strategies to reduce warpage on all sorts of connections not just angle or squares etc. I will write this into a thread for those that are interested and try to answer the question at hand here.

When it comes to square tube 99% of designs use mitred joints, and these are very often done without warpage by skilled operators, With Rectangular tube 2 x 6 x 3/8" you need to consider which axis the mitre would be welded across as the 45 degree weld could be shrinking over a length of 2.8" compared to 8.4" so obviously making a huge difference to the overall shrinkage. I will assume the worst case that we are welding across the 6" side so the 45degree weld is 8.4" long.

The following method is a bit OTT but is the best possible method to ensure an even frame. If you did this in a commercial shop on any thing but the most critical work, like a turbine plinth or something like that people would think you were dragging the job out. But it is the right way.

1, cut all the pieces, including mitres, leave a 1/16" gap at each joint.
2, grind a 45degree weld prep on each edge to be welded.
3, lay out the frame over an accurate chalk drawing on a rigid flat steel bench and clamp securely. remember the 1/16" gaps, make sure they are even.
4, tack each of the inside top corners of the frame well, for a 3/8" thick wall your tacks should be 3/8" long. tack in order of opposite corners, so furthest away, lefthand then closest righthand side, then furthest away right hand followed by closest lefthand side. The idea is to keep the heat even across the whole frame. I would mark each corner with a number as I will use the same order for each step, this not only reduces warpage but reduces the chance that you will miss a weld.

5, tack the out side top corners in the same order as step 4.
6, flip the frame check it against the chalk drawing, and repeat 4 and 5.
7, stand the frame on it's edge and fully weld each of the inside fillet welds, in the same order as step 4 again.
8, frame still on edge weld each of the out side corner fillets, step 4 order.
9, lay the frame down on the bench, check it against drawing adjust if necessary, after the next step you won't be able to.
10, weld each diagonal joint from the inside corner out to the midpoint, in the same order as step 4, do not take a rest between welds, you need these to all still be quite hot when the last one is finished.
11, flip the frame and repeat step 10.
12, flip the frame again and repeat step 10 except welding in from the outside corner.
13, finally flip the frame one last and time finish off the last four welds and still in order and as always without resting in between the four welds.

As I said above this is the neurotic method, but it assures that all shrinkage will be counteracted by identical shrinkage on the opposing corner.

the more commonly used method is to simply use experience or a test piece to estimate the effect of shrinkage if you simply weld around each corner continuously and set your pieces up taking the shrinkage into account, so if your test piece measures an 87degree angle set you real pieces up at 93 degrees and use the same method to weld as you did on the test piece.

I hope this has answered your question and frankly, couldn't imagine how I could add any more detail.

I am going to explain the way shrinkage works on another thread if that helps, I will give some tips as to where one can get caught up as well.

Best Regards
Rick
Whatever it is, do it today, Tomorrow may not be an option and regret outlasts fatigue.
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