[HELP] Shaper Tool Holder Position

[KellisRJ]

Hello, thanks in advance to any who can help.

In this thread, http://www.metalworkingfun.com/thread-791-page-4.html

I read Stevec 's post regarding tool placement in a shaper clapper, described from a 90 degree position. Can this also be called the tool holder leading or following the clapper?

From your comment, it sounds like setting tool holder behind the clapper head is generally the best practice to prevent the tool digging into the work. Do I have this correct?

Any other general "rule of thumb" to share, I would deeply appreciate.

Ron

[EdK]

Welcome to the forum Ron!

I can't answer your question since I've never used a shaper but I'm sure some other member will be able to help you.

Ed

[Vinny]

(11-30-2023, 01:59 PM)KellisRJ Wrote: Hello, thanks in advance to any who can help.

In this thread, http://www.metalworkingfun.com/thread-791-page-4.html

I read Stevec 's post regarding tool placement in a shaper clapper, described from a 90 degree position. Can this also be called  the tool holder leading or following the clapper?

From your comment, it sounds like setting tool holder behind the clapper head is generally the best practice to prevent the tool digging into the work. Do I have this correct?

Any other general "rule of thumb" to share, I would deeply appreciate.

Ron

I'm going to take a stab at this, BTW, welcome to the forum!

The shaper pushes the bit into the metal it's cutting. A positive rake would act as a wedge forcing the bit further into the metal. The 90 degree portion only applies to the lathe where rather than diggin in on the lathe, the cutter would be forced away from the metal. On the shaper, the cutter/bit should always be at a 90 to the metal. I'm using the term "metal" as the substance you're cutting be it metal, wood, etc.. Did I answer your question or make it worse? I haven't run a shaper since high school and that was a loooooong time ago.

[Hawkeye]

I haven't seen any other shapers, but on my Lewis, when you're smoothing a flat, horizontal surface, the pin that the clapper pivots on is perfectly horizontal. The entire clapper can be angled to the right or the left, causing the pivot pin to stay in the same relationship to the tool (also tilted). That way, when the tool is being pulled back for the next pass, the tool will be pivoted back evenly, preventing it from jamming against either the 'bottom' or 'side' of the cut. Picture cutting a dovetail - you have a very narrow, tight space for the tool to be dragged back in. If the pivot was still horizontal, the tool could jam in or damage the top slope of the cut.

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but it does give me a chance to ramble on a bit.

[KellisRJ]

(11-30-2023, 08:36 PM)Vinny Wrote: I'm going to take a stab at this, BTW, welcome to the forum!

The shaper pushes the bit into the metal it's cutting.  A positive rake would act as a wedge forcing the bit further into the metal.  The 90 degree portion only applies to the lathe where rather than diggin in on the lathe, the cutter would be forced away from the metal.  On the shaper, the cutter/bit should always be at a 90 to the metal.  I'm using the term "metal" as the substance you're cutting be it metal, wood, etc..  Did I answer your question or make it worse?  I haven't run a shaper since high school and that was a loooooong time ago.

Vinny, thanks for the welcome and yes. A second set of eyes reading Stevec's comment cleared up my confusion over his "90 degrees". Pull head from arse.

Shaper information is quite spread out in several forums, I just keep trying to learn.

Again, thanks.

Ron

[KellisRJ]

(11-30-2023, 11:31 PM)Hawkeye Wrote: I haven't seen any other shapers, but on my Lewis, when you're smoothing a flat, horizontal surface, the pin that the clapper pivots on is perfectly horizontal. The entire clapper can be angled to the right or the left, causing the pivot pin to stay in the same relationship to the tool (also tilted). That way, when the tool is being pulled back for the next pass, the tool will be pivoted back evenly, preventing it from jamming against either the 'bottom' or 'side' of the cut. Picture cutting a dovetail - you have a very narrow, tight space for the tool to be dragged back in. If the pivot was still horizontal, the tool could jam in or damage the top slope of the cut.

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but it does give me a chance to ramble on a bit.

Ah, another "Blinding flash of the obvious (BLUF)" as we said in one of my former professions. I picked up recently the part that holds the clapper needs to be pointed the direction of the cut. Now I think that with the Armstrong tool holder where the tool can  be angled, for a dovetail per your example, it's not important. Pivoting the clapper back into position where it will swing properly, well I kinda missed that. Just a little important. 90 degrees . . .

Oh boy . . .
 

Hawkeye, thank you for the ramble.

[KellisRJ]

Quote:EdKWelcome to the forum Ron!

I can't answer your question since I've never used a shaper but I'm sure some other member will be able to help you.

Ed

Thank you Edk. I have the shaper just because I wanted one, and it's a Logan to, uh, match my Logan 10" lathe. 

"If" my mill was running, I'm hoping it's just a matter of taking off the very heavy cast iron frame and fixing the centrifugal clutch, I probably wouldn't have bothered with it right now. 

That said, now I picked up one important lesson here, and from another forum picked up a VERY important lesson that on a shaper, check the horizontal screw friction before assuming the problem is the nut or screw. Mentioning that just in case anyone else stumbles across this and can use the "Ah ha."

Now to see if I can clean up the finish. After I grind a new tool. I've heard a couple of terms for the jobs that have to get done to be able to do the actual task. "Tangential tasks" is one.

Ron

[Dr Stan]

(11-30-2023, 01:59 PM)KellisRJ Wrote: Hello, thanks in advance to any who can help.

In this thread, http://www.metalworkingfun.com/thread-791-page-4.html

I read Stevec 's post regarding tool placement in a shaper clapper, described from a 90 degree position. Can this also be called  the tool holder leading or following the clapper?

From your comment, it sounds like setting tool holder behind the clapper head is generally the best practice to prevent the tool digging into the work. Do I have this correct?

Any other general "rule of thumb" to share, I would deeply appreciate.

Ron

I recommend you search for "Machinery Repairman 2 & 3" the training manual for the US Navy's MR's or machinists as they are normally called. It has a section on shapers and how to grind their tools. I learned how to run a shaper when I went to the MR A School and later learned how to run a planner while onboard the USS Samuel Gompers AD-37, a repair ship. BTW, they are the only machines I know of that can produce a flat knurl. Also great for making blind internal dovetails.

[KellisRJ]

(01-14-2024, 03:47 AM)Dr Stan Wrote:

(11-30-2023, 01:59 PM)KellisRJ Wrote: Hello, thanks in advance to any who can help.

In this thread, http://www.metalworkingfun.com/thread-791-page-4.html

I read Stevec 's post regarding tool placement in a shaper clapper, described from a 90 degree position. Can this also be called  the tool holder leading or following the clapper?

From your comment, it sounds like setting tool holder behind the clapper head is generally the best practice to prevent the tool digging into the work. Do I have this correct?

Any other general "rule of thumb" to share, I would deeply appreciate.

Ron

I recommend you search for "Machinery Repairman 2 & 3" the training manual for the US Navy's MR's or machinists as they are normally called. It has a section on shapers and how to grind their tools. I learned how to run a shaper when I went to the MR A School and later learned how to run a planner while onboard the USS Samuel Gompers AD-37, a repair ship. BTW, they are the only machines I know of that can produce a flat knurl. Also great for making blind internal dovetails.

 Thanks, what a great resource! The clearest explanation of tool faces I have ever read, and I have read many! Page 6-12 (page number not scanned properly): "Notice that there are two relief angles and two rake angles and that the angle of keenness is formed by cutting a rake angle and a relief angle." From something I read decades ago, "Look at the rake of her bow." has stuck with me, helping me to visualize that rake is simply an angle. For others, a proper definition is  "Rake may be defined as the angle the ship’s stem makes with the waterline." The stem is the most forward part of a ship’s bow.