Walter FaceMill Choice

[ronboult]

After reading Pixmans articles on his Facemills I am thinking of purchasing a 45deg Face mill. He seems to like the quality of the Walter mills so I had a look at their 2012 catalogue.

My mill is only a small bench mill (1.5hp) with a R8 spindle. 
My inclination is therefore to limit my purchase to a 40 or 50mm 45 deg facemill. 

I currently have a chinese BAP 400R-50-22-4T (APMT1604 inserts) shoulder mill and an EMR-5R-50-22-4T (RPMW1003 insert) corner mill

First decision is what model Walter facemill F2233 or F4033. (F2233.B.040.Z03.05  or  F4033.B22.050.Z03.06)   The F2233 comes in both 40mm & 50 mm sizes with 22mm bore. The F4033 only seems to be 50mm or larger.

Then there is the number, type and size of inserts. The  F2233 is available with either 3, 4 or 6 inserts (40mm), 4, 5 or 8 (50mm)  and F4033 isavailable with either 3, 4 or 6 inserts (50mm) In addition the F2233 is available to take  9 or 12mm inserts. Decisions Decisions!!!!!!!

Can any body advise what are the advantages & disadvantages with 3, 4, 5, 6 or 8 insert cutters? For general purpose use on both steel and Alu what should I choose?

For my size mill I think the 9mm insert size is probably all I need  (SDGT09T3AEN ) but the  (SNHX1205ANN ) used in the F4033 has 8 edges and should also be OK. Are either of these more readily available or significantly cheaper.


Thanks

Ron

[Mayhem]

Ron - I would look at what is available on ebay.com (not ebay.com.au) at a good price and make sure you look at sellers offering the global shipping option. It makes buying from outside Australia much easier and (often) cheaper. Unless you are making money (good money) from your machining then buying new is not going to be viable. Insert grade and geometry can be matched to your needs, so you only need to buy a single face mill and change inserts accordingly.

I'd consider other models than just those you have listed above. I have a 2" F2280 (now called F4080) face mill, as well as a 1.5" F4042R shoulder mill. Both work effortlessly in my Kondia FV-1 mill. Whilst HP is important, spindle speed is too, as are feed rates and overall rigidity.

Personally, I would never buy an insert tool without discussing it first with PixMan (Ken), as he has a wealth of knowledge in this area and goes out of his way to help others make the correct choice. Be warned though, he will want precise information from you with regards to the capabilities of your mill and your application.

[PixMan]

Thanks for asking, Ron, and thanks to Darren for the endorsement.

You're asking the right questions. When I had a 1HP machine I used cutters similar to the F2233 and they worked great. The F4033 is a "double negative" type milling cutter that depends upon the top form geometry of the inserts alone for reducing cutting force. A cutter such as F2233 or F4080 is a true "positive rake" cutter and generally requires less HP.

In home shops we need the most versatility at the lowest cost so I would look for a bargain on an F2233, F2280 or F4080 cutter. The best overall value is when you get the 8 cutting edges of an octagonal insert. A low HP machine can't take terribly deep cuts, so the F2280/F4080 with 3mm or 4mm maximum depth per pass is ideal and you still get relatively high material removal rates.

Inserts for all these types of cutters (not just Walter brand) tend to be proprietary and harder to find bargains, though the quality of the products results in the longest tool life even when you're "abusing" them a bit.

As Darren suggests, look for eBay sellers that ship to Australia and ideally a "package deal" of cutter with inserts. I would suggest that a 50mm to no more than 63mm cutter is a better match to you machine and it's available power. With a 45º lead angle cutter the forces are reduced so you can effectively use a larger cutter engagement than you would with a 90º shoulder mill.

If you can't find a bargain on one and are willing to buy new, I would probably recommend F4080.B22.050DC.Z04.03 and insert ODMT0504ZZN-D57 in grade WKP35S or WSP45S. Eight cutting edges per insert is cheaper then the 4 of the SDGT09T3AEN because they aren't twice the price of the latter.

[ronboult]

Hi Pixman
Thank you for your detailed and informative reply. Very helpful.

Looking at the Walter catalogue the F2233 and F4033 are available with 3,4 5 6 or even 8 inserts in a 50mm facemill.

What are the advantages /disadvantages of a few or many inserts? Should I choose a low number or high number and even or odd? Does it matter ?
Ron

[PixMan]

Ron,

The number of inserts in a given mill aren't terribly important. Recommended feed rates for those (and any other) cutters are given as "feed per tooth". In the reality of home shop use on a manual machine (including those with power feed controlled by potentiometer) the feed rate is set "by ear."

The limiting factor in feed rate per tooth is the available spindle power. You can only feed as fast as the spindle allows without bogging down. The more you have, the faster the actual feed can be. Try to think of it in terms of 0,15 mm/t for a tough stainless steel up to 0,45mm/t for a low carbon steel. With 4 inserts that's 0,60mm per rev up to 1,8mm per rev. That gets doubled with 8 inserts. How many do you want to wear out at once? ;)

Thing is, it all equals out because tool life comes down to one edge will remove X amount of material. More inserts in the cut just means it happens faster in a given task. For my 2HP machine I find the 4-insert cutters get far more use than the same size 6 insert F4033 because I seem to just better like how the lower density cutters work.

Like I told Ed when he recently got the 2-1/2" (63mm) F2280 from me, with 8 edges, the pack of ten inserts is going to last him years.

Anything you may find, feel free to run it by me.

Ken

P.S. - How about this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walter-42mm-Dia-...567a7532ae

That's a great deal considering it comes with a pack of current inserts!

[ronboult]

Thanks PicMan
Now I understand and can make informed choices.
The ebay listing is an auction and I will keep an eye on it. If it doesnt climb too high I will bid. Have to find a 16mm arbor as all of mine are 22mm. Not a big problem.
Also found this listing
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221786788619?...EBIDX%3AIT

What do you think?
Thanks
Ron

[PixMan]

That's a fine cutter too, though it does appear to be "well used." It might be a little more money in the end because you'll have to find inserts for it.

One thing is that it can make a longer chamfer when you need to, though your machine doesn't have quite enough power to take it all in one pass on many materials.

[ronboult]

Hi Pixman
Been looking on eBay and found a F2280 B 052 Z04 03 for 22MM ARBOR. From what I can find this takes ODMW 060508 inserts. Is this correct as the Walter 2012 catalogue no longer lists this Facemill. Inserts seem to be available such as ODMW 060508-A57 WKP25S or Walter ODMW 060508 A57 WAK25 or ODMW 060508-A57 WKP25S. Are any of these suitable for general use in steel and Alu?

Also found an ad for a WALTER 40MM FACE MILL F2333 B 040 Z06 05 22MM ARBOR but can find no info on this including what inserts it uses. Not listed in the Walter 2012 catalogue as far as I can see. Do you know where one can download earlier versions of the Walter catalogue?
thanks
Ron

[PixMan]

Ron,

The F2280 cutters were discontinued in favor of the updated F4080. There are several differences, none of which make any difference to any home shop guy or most commercial shops. I have one of each. The newer version has nickel plating, slightly stronger design, and 1mm longer screws for the inserts.

The larger ODMT, ODHT and ODMW 0605ZZN inserts do seem to be more available, though are a couple dollars more expensive new. From eBay and other sellers of surplus, the larger ones can be cheaper because there's more of them. There are only two sizes, the 0504ZZN and larger 0605ZZN. An ODHT is fully ground periphery, and very sharp. An ODMT will have a slightly honed edge and are cheaper because they're "as sintered." The ODMW aren't as common, and are essentially a "flat topped" insert. I would only use those for short-chipping gray cast iron, though an ODMT will also work fine.

As for the F2333 cutter you mention, please double check that number. I'm betting it's actually an F2233 as I have Walter catalogs 2002, 2005 and the current one and F2333 isn't shown. If it's an F2233, that would use screw down positive rake insert SDMW/SDMT/SDGT 09T3AEN inserts. Not so common.

Feel free to send links to what you find, no one else here is likely going to snag them from you. Hope this helps.

Ken

[Mayhem]

I have a F2280 and I love it A pack of 10 ODHT0605ZZN-F57 WKP35 inserts shipped to Australia from Germany run at about $82.50 AUD, which is just over $1 per edge. These pop up on eBay all the time.

So for the money, the (newer version) F4080 that Ken linked to in his initial reply (ø42mm face mill + 10 WKP35S inserts) is a good buy at $168 AUD plus $33.56 AUD shipping. There is still a day and a bit to go, with no bidders...