Facemill Inserts for aluminium

[Wongster]

Hi guys, 

Me again with all my newbie's questions. 

I bought a facemill years ago out of impulse and would love to use it rather than having it as a paper weight. Got it from CTCTools.biz with an MT2 taper and M10 drawbar. The set came with 10 inserts of type AMPT1604PDER-H2 VP15TF, which is supposed to be for stainless and harder steel.  

The last time I used it when it arrived was to test it out in some aluminium stock. Surface finish was terrible no matter how I tried dialing it in. So I set it aside since. Recently, I came across some inserts via some promo emails and saw some inserts are made for aluminium and softer material. But I couldn't figure out which I shouldn't get to give the Facebook mill another chance. No reply from CTCTools since I wrote with my question weeks ago. They used to be very responsive. But I've not dealt with them for years. 

The face mill has the model number TP16-50-22-3T. Googling around I saw the insert type TPMN1603 instead for this model number on AliExpress. Thus the confusion. 

Can anyone help me to figure out what I should be getting for aluminium? 

Thank you. 
Wong

[Mayhem]

Can you post a picture of the facemill please?

If the AMPT1604 inserts fit then I would imagine that you would search for this size/shape insert with a suitable top form geometry and grade to suit aluminium. I did a search and the model number turned up cutters with rhomboid and triangular inserts.

Personally, I'd stay away from the cheap Chinese inserts and buy from a reputable manufacturer (Walter, Iscar, Kennametal, Mitsubishi etc) but that is just me.

[TomG]

Wong,

Looking at the pics on the website, that insert (TP_N1603) has too little clearance and zero back rake, which is one reason why it's not working well for aluminum. The cutting edge on inserts for steel is also not very sharp, so the aluminum just sort of gets dragged along leaving a lousy finish. Carbide inserts are extremely specific in their application, so you'll need to find one with the proper geometry and composition for the specific material and alloy you are machining. That's why I'm such a fan of HSS for general machining.

Tom

[Mayhem]

That is why we need a picture Tom. Wong states that AMPT inserts came with the cutter, which are completely different to the TPxN inserts. My guess is that it uses AMPT inserts.

[Wongster]

(05-24-2017, 09:17 AM)You Mayhem Wrote: That is why we need a picture Tom.  Wong states that AMPT inserts came with the cutter, which are completely different to the TPxN inserts.  My guess is that it uses AMPT inserts.

Thank you both for your replies. Just got home and took some pics of the face mill and inserts. The inserts are Mitsubishi. 









I saw this on ctctools and wonder if they can be used in the face mill: http://www.ctctools.biz/mitsubishi-carbi...r-g2-l165/

It did say the following in the description:
"For Cutting Aluminium and Titanium with Endmill Holders for APMT/APGT Inserts"


Do you think this will fit?

[EdK]

Those will likely work but that's awfully cheap for 10 Mitsubishi inserts. That's about half price so they may be fake Mitsubishi inserts.  

Ed

[TomG]

Wow, those are a lot different than what I got tracking down the part numbers! Too bad Ken isn't around anymore, he was the insert guru.

Tom

[Wongster]

I didn't know that it's so much cheaper than the real thing. Looks expensive to me even at that price hahahaha... I'll try to track it down locally.

So, as long as I get the same part number: APGT1135PDFR-G2 HTi10, it should fit? I find lathe inserts easier to understand when someone explained them to me than this. Bought a few HSS inserts through Little Machine Shop few years ago and was told how to ID the right part number to order. Very happy with what I got so far from LMS.

[Mayhem]

Hi Wong - thanks for posting the pics, which confirm that it does indeed take APxT1604 inserts.

Unfortunately, the ones you linked to above are a different size to the ones your facemill takes. The 1604 inserts are 0.650" in length, where the smaller 1135 inserts are 0.443" in length. The two web pages below show the dimensions of the two.

http://www.mitsubishicarbide.net/mmus/en...s/20050850

http://www.mitsubishicarbide.net/mmus/en...s/20050811

I'd suggest downloading some Mitsubishi milling insert catalogs (current and past) and then using that information to find some inserts on eBay or to confirm whether CTCT or LMS (or anyone else has inserts that suit your cutter). As long as you can find the APxT1604 size inserts it is then a matter of finding a chipbreaker and grade suited to your application. The reason I suggest Mitsubishi is that is their inserts fit then I'd stick with them, as I really don't know if they are proprietary inserts or not. If the cutter is a direct copy of a Mitsubishi facemill, then you may find that only Mitsubishi inserts will fit. To check, you can always find other manufacturers who offer these inserts and check the dimensions. I've learned a little bit off of Ken but certainly nowhere near what he knows. I think it is more the parting/grooving inserts that are proprietary but I'm not willing to place money on that.

Also, the list price I saw was what I would expect for those inserts. I see Walter inserts for my cutters going between $60 and $80 sometimes and I generally buy if I see them around the $60 mark for a pack of 10. We don't need the latest and greatest chipbreakers and inserts, so the old obsolete (and often cheaper) inserts work just as good in our applications.

Also - could you write out the designation of the facemill that is shown on the pictures you posted. I cannot quite make out the first part but it actually does look like they ripped off the designation of the Mitsubishi cutter that they copied. I saw a very similar designation when browsing the current catalog. You never know your luck!

Happy hunting!

[Wongster]

Thanks Mayhem. They still say the 1135 will fit on their website... sigh... I'll search around based on what you said.

BAP400R-50-22-4 is the full designation on the facemill. I'll use that to search around too.

Thank you very much for all the help, together with Tom and Ed.