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+--- Thread: How to start (/thread-3854.html)
How to start - Nikon1975 - 03-03-2018
Dear All,
This is my first post here. I started the hobby almost 10 years ago to build audio amplifiers, and these need metal and wood parts, mostly if units need massive heat dissipation. I realised I like the metalworking part a lot (more than the wood work for sure). So in the beginning I used a hand held drill. Things got much more pleasant when I got an old Flott TB10 press drill, although it has the spindle 0.05 mm out of centre due to past misuse. The biggest parts I think I will work with would be around 200 X 40 X 350 mm.
I really want to gain the capability to mill metals. I would be mostly mill aluminium, for the audio things, but I might want to use steel to make tools from time to time.
I don't have much space, so I would need a table unit. I am considering a Bernardo KF20 (http://www.bernardo.at), mostly because I live in Austria and the shipment is free.
I am seeking your advice, as I basically am completely lost. I see vices that look the same to me costing from 30 $ to 300$. I don't see the difference. And it goes the same for any other tool.
I think I understood that converting the Flott to a mill just buying a cross table is not a good idea, so I think I have to buy a new machine. Not sure if I will still have use for the Flott then as it is a heavier machine compared to the one I can probably afford.
What I see on the second hand market is that you can get very good deals on big machines, probably because professionals are moving to CNC, but almost nothing on small, hobby size machine.
Can somebody point me in the right direction ?
Thanks,
Davide
RE: How to start - Vinny - 03-03-2018
Welcome to the forum Davide!!!
Every tool/machine has it's unique uses. You'll find you use the Flott AND the new mill. I have both a drill press and a mill and use both regularly.
RE: How to start - Highpower - 03-03-2018
Hello Davide!
I think the KF 20 mill might be a little too small for what you will be doing. In my opinion you would be much happier and more comfortable with the work space provided by one of the KF 16 variants.
The cost difference in the vices you are looking at is because the more inexpensive ones are designed for use on a drill press only. Heavier built machine vices for use on a mill are obviously more expensive. They hold your work much more securely than a drill press vice. The side forces from a mill cutter demand having your material held very solidly.
RE: How to start - EdK - 03-03-2018
to the forum Davide!I agree with Willie. Get the biggest mill you can fit in your space.
Ed
RE: How to start - pepi - 03-03-2018
Welcome, I understand the attraction very well.
What's your budget, approximate size of the largest component you can think of to be made.
"mill aluminium, for the audio things"
I will go out on a limb and say a bench top mill will fill your needs, nicely. The right one, as in geared transmission and a dovetail column are a couple of things to know.
Mill vise 250 - 1000, don't let that scare you. Thinking about audio things a lower priced vise should suit.
We have a few members that live in Austria ... that may help with what's available locally to you.
Personally I'd say buy new, or learn a load about mills before you get serious about purchasing used.
KF 20 mill .. Willie makes a good suggestion,
KF30, 100 bucks more even better. I think a mill the size of the KF 30, I would want the column to be a dovetail design.
Anyway these are most likely in the right ballpark for what you plan to machine.
Cheers,
Greg
RE: How to start - Nikon1975 - 03-04-2018
Thanks for the replies. I looked at the KF16 and did not like the fact that it had a MK2 taper, when the KF20 has a MK3 taper, but I guess I was looking at the wrong things. So what are the parameters I have to look to judge a machine ? What I don't like in all these entry level machines is that the maximum guaranteed value for the runout of the spindle is not specified, where in the higher class it is.
I could not find specifications for the KF 30 on the website.
So let's say I go for a KF 16 L Vario, that has a bigger table, what vise should I mate with it ? I ask because I do not have a real vise now and this might be the first thing I will buy, to use with the Flott as well.
Thanks,
Davide
RE: How to start - Highpower - 03-04-2018
Entry level machines are built to a price point so precision fits and run out are at the bottom of the priorities list. As precision goes up so does the price. More expensive materials are needed and much there is much, much more labor involved in their design and manufacturing.
KF 20 Technical specifications
- Drilling capacity in steel 13 mm
Face mill capacity max. 30 mm
End mill capacity max. 16 mm
Distance spindle to column 165 mm
Distance spindle to table 100 - 290 mm
Spindle speed, stepless L= 0 - 1000 rpm
H= 0 - 2500 rpm
Spindle taper MT 3
Table size 385 x 90 mm
Travel (x / y) 235 / 100 mm
Mill head tiltable -45° to +45°
Height adjustment of mill head 190 mm
T-slot size 12 mm
Motor power output S1 100% 0,35 kW / 230 V
Motor power input S6 40% 0,55 kW / 230 V
Machine dimension (W x D x H) 510 x 550 x 760 mm
Weight approx. 50 kg
KF 16 L Vario Technical specifications
- Drilling capacity in steel 16 mm
Face mill capacity max. 50 mm
End mill capacity max. 16 mm
Distance spindle to column 170 mm
Distance spindle to table 275 mm
Spindle stroke 50 mm
Spindle speed, stepless 50 - 1125 / 100 - 2250 rpm
Spindle taper MT 2
Table size 500 x 140 mm
Travel (x / y) 365 / 140 mm
Mill head tiltable -90° to +90°
Height adjustment mill head 200 mm
T-slot size 10 mm
Motor power output S1 100% 0,50 kW / 230 V
Motor power input S6 40% 0,80 kW / 230 V
Machine dimensions (W x D x H)* 610 x 500 x 820 mm
Weight approx. 65 kg
*without stand
Quote:The biggest parts I think I will work with would be around 200 X 40 X 350 mm.
Using your dimensions from your original post as an example look at the table travels given for both machines. The travel shows the maximum amount of movement for the table end to end. The KF 20 table moves a total of 235mm (in the X-axis) which means you cannot traverse the full length of a 350mm long part. It can be done in multiple setups by working on half of the length, then removing the part from the table and shifting it to the side to finish the other half.
The KF 16 on the other hand would be able to reach both ends of the 350mm long part without having to move the part on the table. For a vise I would suggest you go with 100mm jaws. I think this would be a good size that would serve you well on both machines. I would be somewhat partial to the PS 100 myself. If you were working on small model sized parts a 50 or 75mm vice would be OK, but for general shop use I would want something larger.
RE: How to start - Nikon1975 - 03-05-2018
Thanks,
I still do not understand how a bigger machine has a smaller taper. I plan to drive to the Bernardo plant and showroom one of these days.
About the option of keeping both press drill and mill, what work do you prefer to do with the press drill rather than with the mill ? I have two issues in keeping both:
1) The space on the working bench.
2) I was hoping to recover some money selling the Flott, to invest in the new mill.
What about cutters ? What set would you buy as starter kit ? What shape ? What material ? I see cutters that "look" the same to me ranging from 3 to 100 euros. Is it only a matter of material ? What is the best value for money ?
As shapes I think I would want something to chamfer the edges of plates, a 45 degrees cutter, a ball end cutter and some end mill.
Thanks,
D.
RE: How to start - Dr Stan - 03-05-2018
Going to the plant and seeing what they offer is an opportunity few on this site can manage. That is an excellent idea as you can also get a feeling for the quality of the machines. Given their Austrian pedigree the quality should be quite good.
As to used equipment I certainly do not have any idea as to the market for used machines in Austria. Do you have a family member, friend of a friend, etc who is a machinist or tool maker that can give you some advise? Like cars the used machine market can give you the find of a lifetime, or the worst clunker one can imagine. It may be worth the extra money to contact a machine tool dealer and see if they have anything in stock that may suit your needs.
BTW, welcome to the asylum!
RE: How to start - Vinny - 03-05-2018
Quick drilling jobs, power tapping, awkward shaped and/or sized pieces, etc. The table on a drill press is typically smaller and moves around easier whereas the mill does not. It's just easier and more convenient for simple drilling jobs - especially if you already have something set up on the mill then find you need to drill something. If you find the need to sell the drill press, however, perhaps you can pick up a cheap used floor standing drill press.
Since you're planning on visiting the factory/show room, see if there are other choices or options for the spindle.