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+---- Thread: What insert profile (/thread-2620.html)
RE: What insert profile - aRM - 04-20-2015
(04-18-2015, 08:06 AM)PixMan Wrote: OK. So now I'm wondering why the Iscar is a better option. A chipbreaker design is a chipbreaker design. No company has a magic bullet that hits every target in the center, and no insert maker has one chipbreaker design that is going to break chips in every material at every depth of cut and feed rate.
I gave two chipbreakers in a single grade which cover the widest range of those materials, cutting parameters and workpiece configurations of any inserts I know and have tested. I'm out.
KEN, KEN
Please, our humble apologies at the outset.
Slow down. It's all my fault coupled with some misunderstanding. Hear me out.
You gave us Two Types of Inserts and we still can't fathom the application or exact usage. We will use one to do the Rough cutting and the other to obviously Finish the piece, meaning that we will need change either Toolholder or change the Insert in the Toolholder to accomplish the given task with these TWO Different Inserts. May sound stupid but that unfortunately, is our take on how Two totally Different Inserts would be used. This change in Inserts on the run seemed daunting enough for us as we mentally grappled with how one ought to maintain exact Settings on the machine whilst trying to finish the piece at the same time. Easier said than done !!!
We did get Prices from Walter and the Iscar WNMG we looked at was approximately Fifty Percent cheaper than either of the Two Walter's cost wise. Well, unfortunately we all have our financial constraints and we are all not able to randomly fork out the Bucks for Tooling, which made the Iscar positives look a little more appealing. And that was without taking into account the cost of getting another new Toolholder - which really made no difference at the end of the day. So, like DAVE said, we were looking at our options or more so, the alternatives.
Please, don't take this personally. We know U mean well, would always advise sensibly whilst wishing the best for us.
We have not finalised our purchase and, after reading up a bit on the effect of Rakes as well, are now more than ever convinced from exactly what U just said above, that the use of Negative Tooling would really have minimal cutting difference with the superb Inserts U have so highly recommended. And this too, without us having to expend on additional Toolholders.
The bottom line - if we can't afford these today, then tomorrow has more hope and we will eventually get either of the Walter's, LORD WILLING.
So please, U can't stay out 'cos Your invaluable input is needed more here than elsewhere.
We are feeling terrible about this, anyway
aRM
RE: What insert profile - PixMan - 04-20-2015
If the Iscar stuff is cheaper there then just buy it and be done. It's no skin off my nose.
Perishable tooling cost represents, on industry average, about 3% of the cost of making a part. Material, buildings, coolant, compressed air, labor, worker benefits, insurance, losses, taxes, machinery, inventory, waste disposal, heat, air conditioning, accounting, logisitics, and so much more add up to the remaining 97%. If your perishable tooling (inserts, drills, taps, reamers, abrasives and the like) rises by 100% to 6% of the cost of making a part but does so by raising productivity by 15% it's a wash. If you get 20 or 30% bump in productivity with higher material removal rates, the cost of better tooling is easily justified. The only way to know which is better for YOU is to test both with the support of each manufacturer or their representing distributor and quantify the results.
Best of luck to you.
Ken
RE: What insert profile - aRM - 05-04-2015
Hi Guys
Our WNMG Inserts arrived this week and we had a chance over the weekend to use them on 316 S/S.
Man, U Guys were right all along - "U get what U pays for" !!!
These are superb. The finish obtained - just beautiful.
Just need to check whether they will fit on our existing Boring Bars, otherwise, will just get another.
We are really glad we listened to U Guys and must sincerely Thank YOU for the guidance and saving us bucks at the same time.
All the best
aRM
RE: What insert profile - Vinny - 05-04-2015
What!? No pics?
RE: What insert profile - DaveH - 05-04-2015
I'm glad it all came right for you and you are happy with your inserts.
DaveH
RE: What insert profile - PixMan - 05-04-2015
So which maker, chipbreaker and grade did you get, and what cutting parameters did you use?
RE: What insert profile - aRM - 05-04-2015
(05-04-2015, 04:21 PM)Vinny Wrote: What!? No pics?Aw, shucks !!, VINNY
Did not think they were 'that' important or U Guys would really be 'that' interested.
Regrettably, we were totally off the mark. Sorry Guys.
After all they were a couple of smallish Auto Recoil Spring Guide Rods for the Son's 9mm Para which worked out real cool
Apparently, these by most makers are not made in Stainless and sold as a Custom item
Nevertheless, will make it a point next time to remember to post them pics
A pic is worth a ...............
aRM
RE: What insert profile - aRM - 05-05-2015
(05-04-2015, 04:43 PM)PixMan Wrote: So which maker, chipbreaker and grade did you get, and what cutting parameters did you use?Hello there Maestro
We settled for the Iscar for now.
If I recall correctly, they were the IC 907 which we are quite familiar with for our TIP type Threading Insert
"Parameters" - heck Maestro, we don't even know the meaning of the word, technically too complicating a word for us !!!
Tried that fast Speed Lever for 1mm cuts, fed and cut fine. Then switched to our usual slow steady feed rates again for the finish Cuts and, Bob's Your Uncle, a super fine glassy finish with hardly 'threads' showing.
Regretfully, that is the ultimate understanding of our effort and achievement by any given 'parameters'. Really shallow unfortunately.
Don't forget, however, we still do aspire to eventually get "the best" in available Inserts.
Thanks for all the interest and suggestions
aRM
RE: What insert profile - Mayhem - 05-05-2015
Don't worry aRM the cutting speeds, RPM, feed rates, depth of cut etc can be challenging to get a handle on and I struggle with them and really have to concentrate. On my lathe it really is trial and error, as my top speed is lackluster to say the least and my auto feed isn't working (missing actually). I do however look at the DOC range for the inserts and then try to find something in there that works for me. However, I'm only a hobby machinist so I have time to experiment.
Now that I have my mill up and running (albeit with some jobs still to do), I'm finding myself looking at these parameters a little more closely, as I am using HSS mills (to begin with), as they are cheaper to break than carbide ones
But HSS needs to run in a certain window otherwise I will burn them up or rub them blunt.I'm finding the Walter Machining Calculator to be very useful but you have to know the data that it asks for. Some insert manufacturers make this fully available and some do not. I know that Ken has linked to it before but I may as well link to it here, so that you (or anyone else) doesn't have to go searching. It is available in the Innovative App & Software Solutions section.
RE: What insert profile - DaveH - 05-05-2015
aRM,
We always like to see the odd pic or two
Some times it is nice to know the spindle speed (RPM) the diameter and the material you are turning.
Good to know you are happy.
DaveH